uhhh...OOO everyone prbly wanna read fast war!!!!

[CaptainPioneer]

True but, its clearly visible by looking at trends in History that Iraq has visible parallels back to Vietnam. The one thing i say about Clinton is, yes he didnt do anything about the other attacks but... Look at our Economy... Best it was in years! People had jobs, gas prices were low, and his approval rating stayed constantly high even when the whole Monica Lewinsky debacle was blowing up on him.

GW is different, he is just like Johnson in the fact that they both took their "Dont mess with Texas" attitude and shoved it right in the face of the rest of the world after Sept. 11th. It was pretty clear to me that GW had plans of going into Iraq regardless of Sept 11th. He was pretty much trying to continue on what his father had tried to do in Gulf 1.

I never would say that GW doesnt support our troops, but the way that he has vetoed the pullout of troops is just pigheaded and unfortunately its getting more and more of our troops killed and away from their families. I support our troops in the best way i can, and that way is to publically support any action that ensures that they come home safe.

Sometimes i think America needs to take a step back and stop trying to impress the world with how big our dicks are and try some humility once in a while.

[brtnboarder3241]

u keep saying GW u mean george washington???or GB for george bush..lol

sry to say but GB ftl

[Darthness]

GW is george w bush. GB would be his father.

and are you insane? a troop withdrawl would cause MUCH more hate for america across the world than it would staying, not only that, but it would no doubt cause a complete collapse in iraq, and then it would be much worse than it is now. How much humility is that? an all out civil war, much more death and violence would come from that, and then they'd blame us even more.. Also, it sucks that troops are dying, but then, they did join the military. they joined knowing what could happen, most of them probably joined after the war started. not saying its their fault, and i really don't like them being there, but an all out troop withdrawl is just asking for huge problems in the future.

as far as a war with iran, i'd support that but only if the UK is there 100% and we back them. I think iran has a lot to do with the problems in the middle east.

[CaptainPioneer]

To be completely technical... GW is actually his father. The current pres is GHWB but im not going to go into that. I dunno about me being insane... Im pretty stable... I guess everyone has their opinions, im not trying to take pot shots at ya Darth, but what you said has very little merit or credibility.

Im not a professional, but I am a History major with Political Science background and this discussion has come up quite a bit in my 3 years in college so far. It is historically proven that the real problem, the biggest problem in the Middle East is not even Iran or Iraq or any of those countries, rather The US. It is because of our involvement in the Israeli and Palestinian wars over the last century that has made America a target for Middle Eastern extremists.
I find that its extremely easy and naive to take a purely PRO-American stance on every issue that comes up in the world. I have little faith in the Bush Administration, and especially now with the sudden dismissal of 8 US Attorneys. All this talk about going to war with Iran would never pass with our country. It just wont... Bush has probably one of the lowest approval ratings in the last 30 years and even devout republicans are beginning to not support him. The reason i say pull out is because when you look at all the history of US involvement in foreign wars, we have screwed the pooch ever since Korea.
It is interesting that America believes so heavily in Liberty, Freedom and the right of revolution, yet we try so hard to not allow any country have true Freedom or revolution.
Looking back on Korea and Vietnam, both countries benefited greatly after the pull out of American troops because they had it in their heads that it was not America's war to be won, but a conflict of their own people.

Lastly, it is apparently America's job to spread Democracy around the world like it was some mission from God. How the hell can we impose Democracy on a people who have opperated for thousands of years without it, and expect them to understand the process? Perhaps Democracy is not what the middle east is in need of, because it is not a fight over political ideals in their country, rather a country divided by religious issues.

In conclusion, before anyone starts making some bs claims that America is the greatest all this other nonsense that im picking up on, do some homework on the issue at hand. I am speaking from intense interest in the subject and also i do have experience in this area. So i think people need to have an open mind about this war that we so oftenly refer to as a war on terror. Who is America saving from terror, because it sure seems like the people of Iraq are experiencing it on a daily basis. And here we are complaining about Gas prices. Wow we really have it hard.

[JeremyC]

Ok I have to agree with Darth here. If we pull out to soon, were going to cause a whole shit storm. I agree things are bad now, but they could be a 1000 times worse. People seem to forget about the other 75% of Iraq thats happy to have us there. The ones that Aren't getting killed and tortured every day by their own leader. The ones that have running water, and a school for their kids for the first time in 30 years.

Looking back on Korea and Vietnam, both countries benefited greatly after the pull out of American troops because they had it in their heads that it was not America's war to be won, but a conflict of their own people.

Have you ever been to korea? WE NEVER LEFT. We are still there, we are still getting shot at. If we would have done a complete pull out in Korea, the war woud have started all over. Its the same in Iraq. If we blindly pull everyone out, things will end up worse that they were before we went in. Yeah it sucks, we could have left Sadam in power, people would still be getting killed, but the US wouldn't be there, so no one seemed to care.

[Bwcad1]

wow. im not even going to get into this one.

[CaptainPioneer]

From what i know about Korea their largest issues is not in dealing with American forces. We may have some troops stationed there but i guarantee you that we are not their biggest problem. They are still struggling to find a unifying national identity.
The largest problem that i find today with everyone approaching these issues is that they take them on face value and what is said in the media. Its just not smart. If you really want to understand conflict and war from both sides i suggest that you take the time to look analytically back at history in an unbiased way. Clearly Joey, you feel that the armed forces should not pull out, but you are out their fighting it I know that i couldnt put myself in that place and i support you, but i cannot support the same bullshit presidencies that have condemned American Economies and made America out to be the enemy in the world. Im sorry, but when i look back on this war and the wars previous, i dont just look at the American point of view. I know what political propaganda is. There is no way that 75% of all Iraqi's are happy with us being there. How do they get this statistic? Thats like saying that they made every ground troop in Iraq ask each citizen if they like us being there or not. Condemn me for what i say or not, but i dont speak against this war because i have a beef with the administration, rather it is the problems that our country is facing at home that are more important than what is happening abroad. We have serious issues here with our National Debt, our Economy is slowly recovering, and our President is so closed minded that no matter what the consensus in the house and senate is, he will veto it.

Call it what you will, but this IS another Vietnam. The only difference is that Iraq was not colonized by some outside power. The fact of the matter is that America sticks its nose into too many other peoples interests. This whole business with the British sailors, for all i care, I say that Britain takes care of this on their own? They have a very capable navy and have extremely capable diplomats. Its time for America to start practicing some of its Isolationist doctrine that it enjoyed pre 1930.

[brent]

Condemn me for what i say or not, but i dont speak against this war because i have a beef with the administration, rather it is the problems that our country is facing at home that are more important than what is happening abroad. We have serious issues here with our National Debt, our Economy is slowly recovering, and our President is so closed minded that no matter what the consensus in the house and senate is, he will veto it.

I don't have enough first hand experience to really speak openly about this war, so I will stay out. However, what would happen if we picked up and left now? They would come to us, and then our problems would be exponentially larger then they are now. We have gone to far to just stop and think they would forget about it. The major difference in American opinion about this war lies in our own cultures. We are becoming to liberal of a nation to see the facts clearly, whichever way they may be, for or against the war.

[CaptainPioneer]

i just see this as exactly what we said in Vietnam except it took us 16 years to figure that out. I just dont understand, I think that sometimes a Civil war is a good thing. I mean i look back on the Revolutionary war in America, Brits and Torie Americans vs, colonial patriots, and then the Civil War where it was Union vs Confederate, and i see the benefits that we have taken from those and the lessons we have learned. I dont understand why it is our place to dictate whether or not Civil War is alright. The prime reason we are in Iraq and Iran is not because we want to spread Democracy there... It always comes down to financial security, and lets face it Iraq sits on one HUGE oil reserve, also look how much Money Haliburton was thrown for their part in the war? That went to line Mr. Cheney's pockets as well as his friends. I really believe that we should have just stopped at Afghanistan. That maybe would have been the smart idea. Really and truely we had more reason to attack Saudi Arabia than Iraq, only because Bush said WMD did we commit, and look there, no WMD's. The terrorists that took part in The Sept 11th attacks came from Saudi Arabia! I mean why didnt we attack them? Cause of oil, money, and economic National trade agreements. The logic is just screwed up in our government right now, and our option now is to really just let Iraq have its own war between themself. Like i said before, there war is not political rather an opposition or conflicting Religious views.

Well anyway i am off to my Asian history class and Historiography, I will be sure to stop by one of the profs office and ask him about his opinion on this war seeing as he is from Iran.

[OnYrMrk]

Really and truely we had more reason to attack Saudi Arabia than Iraq, only because Bush said WMD did we commit, and look there, no WMD's. The terrorists that took part in The Sept 11th attacks came from Saudi Arabia! I mean why didnt we attack them? Cause of oil, money, and economic National trade agreements. The logic is just screwed up in our government right now, and our option now is to really just let Iraq have its own war between themself. Like i said before, there war is not political rather an opposition or conflicting Religious views.

I guess you only study history of the last 40 years not the last 6...We did attack Saudi Arabia...we did retaliate 9/11 and we are still there, fighting, killing and since it is war, dying. Yet no body even cares, surely not the media. Also, Jeremy is the one who opposes the pull out. I also remember that he mentioned earlier in this thread that over 500 chemical bombs and weapons have been found since the war started, and I know you are a PolySci major, but I was a biology major, and chemical bombs ARE weapons of mass destruction. They can kill masses more efficiently than an atomic bomb. Yet the media doesn't think this is true. WMD's doesn't just mean nuclear, it means any type of weapon that can kill massive amounts of human life at once. So enjoy your stay in PolySci...I hope you do well, but, I suggest you look at the information set before you...and you read it. Read it well. It will serve you well.

Also, the current President is George Walker Bush..his father is George Herbert Walker Bush. You had them mixed up. George is no Jr...he is his own man.

Also, just for giggles, do you think that the President is just a patsy in all of this. I can tell you this, without his advisors, the Joint Chief of Staff, the Admirals, Generals and Military leaders, as well as the rest of his cabinet, GW would be lost. I would be willing to bet that these people are making the decisions, they plead their case with GW and he sees their point.


btw, we are not going to war this friday. No where has it been mentioned here in the US, only the Russian intelligence has speculated it.