Super Subs

Post by **GlassWolf** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:15 pm

Will, what's happening is the battery's voltage is holding stable longer due to being a better battery and it's compensating for the rail sag when the alternator is maxed out. problem is still there. symptoms are now masked.
you're avoiding clipping but still stressing the alternator and not letting the battery charge teh way it should if the alternator had more reserve current to offer.
Or, you're not driving the system that hard and you're not using nearly the current you think you are which is often the case, too.
remember a 12oo watt amp is only 1200 watts RMS at full output.
half of full output and you're down to ~120 watts.
half of that again, and you're @ 12 watts.
most people claiming to have systems with huge amounts of wattage really never come anywhere close to reaching the system's rated power outputs.

William from NOLA · Post by **William from NOLA** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:26 pm

That's is probably what's happening (both parts really), I figure I only occasionally play it hard (maybe twice a month). Other than that, it never is above half volume.

The power is done exponentially by 10's? I didn't know that. I assumed the power was cut in half rather than by 10.

This makes me think of an experiment; I say build several ported enclosures for sets of subs and limit each amplifier to the frequencies most efficient for the amplifier in that box. I think you could use the same subwoofers for each box. [/end dumb idea]

spkrman · Post by **spkrman** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:28 pm

KikiTheCat wrote:As for a quarter at 120, is 111MPH close enough? That'd be where my car falls in the quarter.

Why have a car that excessive? Not like you'll ever have a need to go that fast.

Or is it just the ABILITY to go that fast....

Anyway, I still don't see a reason to build a system so loud you can't listen to music in it, and most good SPL systems are tuned to horrible frequencies that make them sound awful anyway. Why? The whole idea of car audio is the audio.. the music.. you want to be able to drive the car, and enjoy it, and listen to music in it.

Its quite fun to put up a sweet number... gives a sense of achievement.

Sound quality is completely subjective... one guy loves your setup, one guy hates it...

SPL is 100% objective, this is your number, live with it.

Human nature is competitive... its just how it is.

What makes going around a circle any less fun than going through a bunch of turns? Whats wrong with going to see someone crash? Thats what people like, whats wrong with that?

no no see, you pay me to come do that stuff. that's why I'm the professional here! haha
seriously though, if he hadn't abused the system to begin with, he never would have had any problems.
it yet again comes back to proper installation and application, and rational, intelligent use of the system by the owner. This is like killing your dog, then saying well if you'd had a dog that could take more abuse, it wouldn't have died when you kicked it.

If the sub can't be abused... its just not worth it in my book. I don't like being soft on my equipment... I like getting the absolute most out of what I pay for. If that means driving into hard clipping to gain .1db... so be it :)

how did you measure this impedance?
this is a ported box, tuned to 46Hz?
how was the amp or sub filtered for both HP and LP?
Before I can give specifics, I need more details.

I dont remember the specific settings on the amp, but I measured with a clamp meter and a DMM... got AC current and AC voltage. From there it was just ohms law :)

My initial statement was general and not applied to a specific example. The point was that a "4 ohm" rating on a speaker is purely nominal and the actual AC impedance varies greatly depending on the frequency being produced by the speaker, and the suspension provided by the enclosure at that frequency as well. This will also in turn have a large effect on the actual amount of power the speaker is getting at that frequency.

no woof rated for 4 ohm will ever droop down to .5 ohm unless you are having some serious issues. Typlcally a 4 ohm sub will have a DCR of approx 3.5-4.2. That of course varies alot.

Nobody said the box had to be sealed. a box ported to ~34Hz will give great low end response with a good peak at 20-35Hz with natural roll-off. You have a lot of misconceptions about what can be done with low power systems with proper installation. You don't need to use 2Kw of power to hit high volumes, even with good clarity. I ran an IASCA Pro circuit car with 820wRMS total actual power for years and every event I was in the 151.xdB range on the older AC mics, so figure mid 140s by today's standards. That's plenty respectable for a system IASCA rated @ 410 watts RMS and hitting a perfect C weighted curve.

And I'm doing a 147.0 on the termlab with 2 compVR 12's in my trunk getting around 800 total watts.

And I was doing a 154.0 with 2 stroker 15's in a wall with only 1600 total watts... which btw.. did a 162.2 one time on a crappy AC.. and that wasn't when it was at its loudest. I gained about 2db towards the end of the season.

When cheap subs like the CompVR are readily available for next to nothing, there just is no reason to get anything cheaper... the CVR blows away anything in its pricerange as far as SPL. Doesnt sound too bad either.

Ideal box specs, as provided by Adire Audio. The specs and response are all given on their site, along with the stated recommended power versus thermal power ratings.

Yep... but it was quite a bit exaggerated to prove a point.

except when the DC voltage causes the sub to extend then stop, which causes a loss of linearity. This causes teh coil to cant, and rub against the magnet structure as it travels, fraying teh coil. Then you get an unraveled coil and a frozen cone once again, thanks to clipping, regardless of how much heat or power was applied. This is why clipping with even 25 watts can destroy a speaker.

25 watts of clipping on a dinky weak coil... sure. You could clip your XXX's all day and all night and all day again with that power and not have any issues.

the battery only helps if the engine is off.
you're saying he had solid-core wire?? that was just dumb.

The H2 may very well not handle the power it should, but in every example you've stated, the problem has been caused by something else. Not just the sub itself.

How can the battery only help with the engine OFF?? When your alt can't keep up, guess where the power has to come from...

Solid core wire - lol. Yes, I used a pipe bender to route it all the way back to the cargo area... I made him a new exaust while I was at it :P

I meant 1/0ga wire and a good solid frame ground.

The h2 just isn't a durable sub... its stupid overrated and really isn't even all that loud. Big waste of $.

Post by **GlassWolf** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:10 pm

+10dB = 2X audible volume = 10X the power.

2X the power = +3dB gain

Why have a car that excessive? Not like you'll ever have a need to go that fast.

sure I do, when I take the car to a strip and run ETs for 60', 1/8 and 1/4 mile.
Why have it? It's a classic and it has a lot of sentimental value. Actually two of the cars do anyway. The third is a parts car.

Its quite fun to put up a sweet number... gives a sense of achievement.

thank you. you just stated what I said earlier. It's done to impress others and to show off.

Sound quality is completely subjective... one guy loves your setup, one guy hates it...

No. sound quality is reproducing audio as transparently and accurately as possible so that the reproduced audio is as close to the original session as possible.

What makes going around a circle any less fun than going through a bunch of turns? Whats wrong with going to see someone crash? Thats what people like, whats wrong with that?

a funny thing happened on my way to the Colloseum...
I'm not going to get into a debate over debased morality with you. Especially when your sole misguided purpose is to bicker over a subject that is completely off topic and doesn't belong here.

If the sub can't be abused... its just not worth it in my book. I don't like being soft on my equipment... I like getting the absolute most out of what I pay for. If that means driving into hard clipping to gain .1db... so be it

well that explains a lot about your mentality toward all of this at least.

I dont remember the specific settings on the amp, but I measured with a clamp meter and a DMM... got AC current and AC voltage. From there it was just ohms law

measured current draw for the amplifier?
that's why your measurements are meaningless. They were done based on improper assumptions.
input current != output for an amplifier. especially with a regulated power supply. you have duty cycle to account for, along with internal capacitance and numerous other factors that make your pseudo-measurements inaccurate. sorry.

no woof rated for 4 ohm will ever droop down to .5 ohm unless you are having some serious issues. Typlcally a 4 ohm sub will have a DCR of approx 3.5-4.2.

wrong again. speakers are a reactive load and the actual impedance can vary considerably, especially when the frequency produced is at or near the driver's Fs, or the frequency is below the tuned frequency of the enclosure with no filtering applied.

And I'm doing a 147.0 on the termlab with 2 compVR 12's in my trunk getting around 800 total watts.

to just the subs? the example I gave had 160wRMS x 2 for a pair of 12" subs, and the box was tuned to 34Hz as I said, with a perfect curve. not designed at all for SPL events nor was it tuned for such. a CompVR is about $100 for a 12".
Some people just don't have that much to spend for a pair of subs and a 300 watt amp to drive them decently. Especially highschoolers.

As I've already told you, I've been in this business for over a decade. I know the various sorts of people who buy systems, and their reasonings for going with different products.

your problem seems to be that you can't get out of the mindset of "me me me"
everything has to apply to you or it's worthless. time to grow up and realize that there's a lot more to the world than just you and your feelings on how things should be.

How can the battery only help with the engine OFF?? When your alt can't keep up, guess where the power has to come from...

the battery supplies power when the car motor is off.
when the engine is running, the battery has a lower voltage than the alternator and Vreg output and thus the battery is in a charge state while the motor is running in a PROPERLY RUNNING CAR.
I can screw up anything to make it fit some deluded scenario sure, but why bother?
If you have the proper alternator the battery does NOT supply ANY power when the car is running.
go read the FAQ section here. This si all already covered.
If your battery has to supply the voltage for your car when the engine is running, you've got serious problems.

Solid core wire - lol. Yes, I used a pipe bender to route it all the way back to the cargo area... I made him a new exaust while I was at it :P

well, that wouldn't surprise me having raed some of your posts so far :P
you'd be surprised what I see people try to do in cars, when they're too stupid or too poor to do it right.
You also never specified the wire gauge, so solid core, smaller gauge was very possible, and also a good reason to cause clipping which was what we were discussing.

I think I'm about done with this thread. It's just turning from bad to worse, and I think I'd have slightly more fun sticking my hands in a blender.

Ryan from Ohio · Post by **Ryan from Ohio** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:51 pm

WORD

Is this over yet?

spkrman · Post by **spkrman** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:04 pm

KikiTheCat wrote:sure I do, when I take the car to a strip and run ETs for 60', 1/8 and 1/4 mile.
Why have it? It's a classic and it has a lot of sentimental value. Actually two of the cars do anyway. The third is a parts car.

thank you. you just stated what I said earlier. It's done to impress others and to show off.

No. sound quality is reproducing audio as transparently and accurately as possible so that the reproduced audio is as close to the original session as possible.

Sheesh... You are against SPL competition yet you hop on the track and race your car.

There is no difference and you apparantly hate SPL just because you can.

a funny thing happened on my way to the Colloseum...
I'm not going to get into a debate over debased morality with you. Especially when your sole misguided purpose is to bicker over a subject that is completely off topic and doesn't belong here.

Sheesh again.. step into reality man. Apparantly you are much better than me because your "morals" are different than mine.

Excuse me for being a guy.. I enjoy competition, I enjoy watching a race... I like watching football.. its fun to see a crash, its fun to see someone get a great hit. Its of course not fun when someone actually gets hurt...

But wow are you uptight!

measured current draw for the amplifier?
that's why your measurements are meaningless. They were done based on improper assumptions.
input current != output for an amplifier. especially with a regulated power supply. you have duty cycle to account for, along with internal capacitance and numerous other factors that make your pseudo-measurements inaccurate. sorry.

I said AC current... where did you get DC current from!?!?

OUTPUT!!!! CURRENT and OUTPUT!!!! VOLTAGE! WOW... can I make it anymore obvious? You try to discredit everything I say by just coming up with stuff, getting old...

wrong again. speakers are a reactive load and the actual impedance can vary considerably, especially when the frequency produced is at or near the driver's Fs, or the frequency is below the tuned frequency of the enclosure with no filtering applied.

I understand impedence... But please explain to me how a coil with a DCR of 3.5 will magically drop to .5 ohm? Under what circumstances does this happen...

to just the subs? the example I gave had 160wRMS x 2 for a pair of 12" subs, and the box was tuned to 34Hz as I said, with a perfect curve. not designed at all for SPL events nor was it tuned for such. a CompVR is about $100 for a 12".
Some people just don't have that much to spend for a pair of subs and a 300 watt amp to drive them decently. Especially highschoolers.

And your score was on an AC, nuff said.

your problem seems to be that you can't get out of the mindset of "me me me"
everything has to apply to you or it's worthless. time to grow up and realize that there's a lot more to the world than just you and your feelings on how things should be.

I don't understand where this came from.. please explain.

the battery supplies power when the car motor is off.
when the engine is running, the battery has a lower voltage than the alternator and Vreg output and thus the battery is in a charge state while the motor is running in a PROPERLY RUNNING CAR.
I can screw up anything to make it fit some deluded scenario sure, but why bother?
If you have the proper alternator the battery does NOT supply ANY power when the car is running.
go read the FAQ section here. This si all already covered.
If your battery has to supply the voltage for your car when the engine is running, you've got serious problems.

And its all about me eh? Your the one touting your way is the only way...

You can get by just fine if you have plenty of battery and don't play the system full tilt all day... it'll be there for peaks just fine.

This isn't an SQ setup... its an SPL daily driver, and the reality is, no alt that would bolt right in would ever keep up with the 2500d thats in there now at full tilt. What do you do in this situation? Whats your magic solution... just don't do it? Just do SQ? Just play 90db?

alright...

well, that wouldn't surprise me having raed some of your posts so far :P
you'd be surprised what I see people try to do in cars, when they're too stupid or too poor to do it right.
You also never specified the wire gauge, so solid core, smaller gauge was very possible, and also a good reason to cause clipping which was what we were discussing.

Yes, I used home depot house wiring to hook up the amp... O_o

What made you even ponder that... and what makes you think I'm stupid enough to do something like that? Your completely ridiculous... apparantly nobody can be right but yourself, and its only your way.

I think I'm about done with this thread. It's just turning from bad to worse, and I think I'd have slightly more fun sticking my hands in a blender.

you purposely misinterpret everything I say, and exaggerate to make your points... I think you've had alot of fun in this thread.

Apparantly nobody has ever questioned anything you've said on these boards before...

Ryan from Ohio · Post by **Ryan from Ohio** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:13 pm

Yeah ok...

is this done YET?

spkrman · Post by **spkrman** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:30 pm

Ryan from Ohio wrote:

WORD

Is this over yet?

to a post full of misconceptions and exaggerations

Ryan from Ohio wrote:Yeah ok...

is this done YET?

to the post that pointed that out

hrm...

I dont think it matters who is right and who is wrong, I just think it matters who has more posts :)

audiofreak12 · Post by **audiofreak12** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:42 pm

In my oppinion, wich doesnt count for anything, but kiki has been around since the old forum, hes a professional installer, and a comical comeback genious. I can't believe how a guy that has been on here what a week or two, can jump in and try to prove someone who knows what there doing wrong. I think that your fighting a loosing battle. If i were you i would just get over myself and accept defeat. Thats my $.02 worth, take it like you want. Now, I hope maybe this will get back on track, becuase I would like to see this list when it is finished.

spkrman · Post by **spkrman** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:49 pm

read through the thread and you'll perhaps understand where I'm coming from here

Just because I've been here for a short period of time doesnt mean I'm new to audio.

And just because he's been around doesn't mean he knows everything.

THere are obvious exaggerations put in just to make me look bad... like the 4 ohm sub dropping to .5 ohm, and the brahma only "needing" 500 watts to hit its peak.

Trying to make me look like I setup the h2 system improperly... and that I am completely ignorant to install procedures.

And the complete and oblivious misinterpretation of "solid wire" and I'm not sure exactly what happened with me measuring AC current and AC voltage, its clearly in my original post... then I get slammed for measuring DC input current... WTF?

Then Ryan from ohio comes on and gives a RIGHT ON.. huh?

and now a "your wrong because your new here"??

Whats goin on here?

btw supersubs...

THe quadrasub... although it never worked right :)