A true work of art for sale

[spkrman]

note i said when the amp was within its limits.

Never said all amps sound the same once they begin to reach their limits.

If you setup an SQ system properly... *nothing* will be past 25% or so of its capability for regular listening or SQ competition. That is what SQ is... low volume because thats where the human ear can hear minute differences.

If your trying to judge SQ on the highway in traffic, somethings wrong. If your trying to judge SQ at 130+db, something is wrong again.

True SQ is not to blare music that hurts your ears... its to recreate the music with as much precision as possible - which nearly any half arsed design can do within its limits.

[spkrman]

Where actual TESTING has been done... amp SQ is negligible...

spkrman, apparently you are on of those die hard RC disciples.

Nothing wrong with that, but you seem to be forgetting a couple things.

These "tests" that you speak of(Richard Clark's?) were incredibly controlled experiments. Both amplifiers were limited to inaudible distortion levels, were frequency matched, and were adjusted to produce the same amount of power. To say under normal circumstances that Boss and PPI amps sound the same is ridiculous. Its true that with enough EQing you could mimic the frequency response of an A600.2, but to reproduce the frequency and level of distortion as well as the headroom of an old school PPI producing a significant amount of output would be quite a feat indeed.

I'm not a "die hard fan". If I agree, I agree... if I don't I don't. If you want to compare a 50 watt amp to a 500 watt amp, thats perfectly fine, so long as the levels are kept within the 50 watt amps limits.

Whats the point of running hte 50 watt amp into hard clipping while allowing the 500 watt amp to produce music effortlessly? How would that be a fair test?

Headroom is headroom, whether it be from PPI, kicker, or pyramid.

In addition I'd venture that 99.9% of the car amplifiers currently in use(PPI or otherwise) are used in a manner that produces a significant amount of distortion, much, much more than the limits set forth in RC's amp challenge. Whenever you hear someone give a description of an amp as "warm", "harsh", "clinical" or some other "emotional" response what they are really describing is the frequency response as well as the nature of distortion produced by an amp/driver combo.

If they need to drive hte amp into distortion to produce enough sound, they need a bigger power amp... thats that. Again, 50 watt vs 500 watt...

but to say they sound exactly the same ain't gettin it with me nor, from the looks of it, most of the people on this forum.

-Fishy

doesn't matter if the entire forum diagrees... the forum is here for opinions, I provide objective views... you are totally subjective.

[Fishy]

I'm not totally disagreeing with you. I'm an RC fan myself, but you have to admit that for typical in-car applications claiming a Boss amp's sound quality is on par with an Art Series is a bit of a stretch....... or at least a claim that requires a good deal of qualification.

Bottom line: when played to typical distortion limits(not RC's) w/o equalization the two amps will definitely sound different.

You're not really arguing that point are you?

-Fishy

[GlassWolf]

I understand a lot of folks think older amps look dated. even heard the Art series called "gay" a few times by people who didn't appreciate the artwork of Carolyn Hall Young who designed the images on the Art series amplifiers (hence the name Art series) I like 'modern art' though.. and I've had a few people say my Nagel and Mukai art collections are "so 1980s" as well *laugh*
Anyway, I just like the looks of that 1200.2 and it's performance.
The reason I said its a work of art though, aside from the art of CHY herself, is mainly because the Art series amps were all actually hand assembled, and inspected, and engineer-tuned here in the USA.
Not mass assembly line produced with machines as today's SMT technology products are. I appreciate anything built by hand, with effort and attention.. cars, amplifiers, homes.. I appreciate the humanity involved.

[spkrman]

Bottom line: when played to typical distortion limits(not RC's) w/o equalization the two amps will definitely sound different. You're not really arguing that point are you?

-Fishy

nope, cant argue that because its true :)

Amps will clip different... and will act different once they get past a certain point.

But, in a properly setup SQ system, your nowhere NEAR "full volume" at "full volume" if that makes sense :)

[GlassWolf]

makes sense.
I use a pre-amp with a line driver so that I can set the head unit to a volume pre-distortion, and use the pre-amp as a master volume so even at full, the preamp is still only at a portion of full volume for the head unit's pre-out voltage.
same idea with amplifiers and using level control at the signal processors to trim the signal going to the amplifiers to a pre-audible distortion level.. that way even at full volume, you're not going to clip the amplifiers, or blow the speakers.
Also why Zapco's C2K series amplifiers have computer controlled processors that allow you to set peak output levels for the amplifiers to match the speakers they drive. Prevents blowing things up and keeps the output as clean as possible.

[Fishy]

Yeah, but I think you're trying to make Boss amps into something they are not. If you keep putting conditions on things you begin to limit the performance envelope to a point where the superior piece of equipment just doesn't have a chance to shine.

I'm not at all familiar with Boss's offerings, and I've never entered a SQ competition so I haven't a clue what's considered an acceptable amount of distortion in that case, but for a normal every day driver wouldn't an Art Series be a better choice?

I mean can you really find a Boss amp that performs comaparably to even an A200.2? within your set limitations of course. I'm not sure you can. There's always going to be some difference spec-wise(and I don't mean tha manufacturer's specs) that will separate the two.

Dayum. I think this discussion may be becoming as pointless as the one we're having in the rca voltage drop thread as well.



-Fishy

[GlassWolf]

"Yeah, but I think you're trying to make Boss amps into something they are not. If you keep putting conditions on things you begin to limit the performance envelope to a point where the superior piece of equipment just doesn't have a chance to shine."

an example of this very thing would be Richard Clarks amplifier challenge, which I have saved in Word format if anyone ever wants to see waht it consisted of. I can always paste it to a thread. He basically set limits on every factor so that any two amps compared would sound identical. The points where there would be a difference were negated by the rules of the challenge.

[spkrman]

"Yeah, but I think you're trying to make Boss amps into something they are not. If you keep putting conditions on things you begin to limit the performance envelope to a point where the superior piece of equipment just doesn't have a chance to shine."

an example of this very thing would be Richard Clarks amplifier challenge, which I have saved in Word format if anyone ever wants to see waht it consisted of. I can always paste it to a thread. He basically set limits on every factor so that any two amps compared would sound identical. The points where there would be a difference were negated by the rules of the challenge.

But by this thread before I posted... you'd think the PPI amp would sound better no matter the conditions.

If you could post that up or link to it, that would be nice :)

[Jonathan]

I've gotten in this discussion before and am not going far into it :) , really both sides have credible points. But I'll say this: I don't choose amps based on how they sound, and I could easily choose an amp without hearing it and get fantastic results, via a schematic of the amplifier and a list of the materials used, assuming the company is honest and accurate with their information. Build quality and intelligent engineering are what make an amplifier, not a topology or any other method a company boasts that instantly makes their amps better than others. Confidence is had when you purchase an amplifier that you know is built and designed well.