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eh nevermind, erasin that.. no need for it.

why isnt the PPI flat cone on the super list??
just kidding...

i dont see anything from Focal up there. you can't tell me the 13" utopia driver in a nice vented box isn't SUPER

Yes the L7 can get very loud. I didn't say it should come off teh list. I jsut said it's a poorly designed sub with flaws that lead to premature failures. I'm a SQ person though, not SPL. I think SPL events are pretty pointless.

Any clipping blowing a sub isn't a poorly designed speaker, it's a poorly tuned or installed system. If the system is installed properly you should have any descernable clipping from the amplifiers.

As for my experience though, I'm an E.E., and MECP master installer, and have dealt with both Orion, Kicker, and Eclipse since about 1990 on a professional/retail level. I can't begin to count the number of installs I've done with all of their products.

Like I said though you are very welcome to your thoughts on the various speakers, but in regards to the term "super sub" it's a fairly generic term open to liberal interpretation used to define any "high output" sub, usually with an above average excursion and/or power handling or output. This would include subs with generally more than about 25mm one-way Xmax such as weren't available widely say 5 or 6 years ago. A Kicker CVR would be on par with what was considered a higher end sub back in the mid 90s. Now it's considered entry level, or midrange just above the lowest class of subs like the JL W0 or Kicker Comp series which are low excursion, low price entry subs. The 'super subs' are usually the top end of the offerings from various brands, with over 500wRMS of power handling in their ideal enclosures based on EBP, and above average excursions, or 'long throw' designs.. this can include features like large magnet structures as well, or stacked magnets, double spiders, etc.

I just think arguing about what specific sub you may not feel fits a fairly generic and vague classification, is a lot like arguing over if a certain make and model of car is considered "fast."
Some people think a mustang is fast. some people don't think a car is fast unless it can pull a 60' in 1.5s or less. It's that sort of vagery that leads to arguments and thus to bad blood on such emotionally indecisive formats as the net.

I just wouldn't get so worked up about it. that's all.

KikiTheCat wrote:I think SPL events are pretty pointless.

Please explain...

Any clipping blowing a sub isn't a poorly designed speaker, it's a poorly tuned or installed system. If the system is installed properly you should have any descernable clipping from the amplifiers.

As for my experience though, I'm an E.E., and MECP master installer, and have dealt with both Orion, Kicker, and Eclipse since about 1990 on a professional/retail level. I can't begin to count the number of installs I've done with all of their products.

Well, if he turns it up too much, I can't control that.

I don't think you are understanding just how frail the H2's really are... they are nothing like anything orion has ever made... for whatever reason, they are just incredibly easy to blow. This isn't just a case for the installs I've done with em... its how they are, period.

Any half decent design will be able to handle some amounts of clipping with no major issues. Now, if your wangin on it for hours well above RMS, what do you expect. But if you clip your "2000 watt" RMS sub with your "puny" 1200d you shouldnt have to worry.

Like I said though you are very welcome to your thoughts on the various speakers, but in regards to the term "super sub" it's a fairly generic term open to liberal interpretation used to define any "high output" sub, usually with an above average excursion and/or power handling or output. This would include subs with generally more than about 25mm one-way Xmax such as weren't available widely say 5 or 6 years ago. A Kicker CVR would be on par with what was considered a higher end sub back in the mid 90s. Now it's considered entry level, or midrange just above the lowest class of subs like the JL W0 or Kicker Comp series which are low excursion, low price entry subs. The 'super subs' are usually the top end of the offerings from various brands, with over 500wRMS of power handling in their ideal enclosures based on EBP, and above average excursions, or 'long throw' designs.. this can include features like large magnet structures as well, or stacked magnets, double spiders, etc.

I just think arguing about what specific sub you may not feel fits a fairly generic and vague classification, is a lot like arguing over if a certain make and model of car is considered "fast."
Some people think a mustang is fast. some people don't think a car is fast unless it can pull a 60' in 1.5s or less. It's that sort of vagery that leads to arguments and thus to bad blood on such emotionally indecisive formats as the net.

I just wouldn't get so worked up about it. that's all.

Not gettin worked up, just havin fun :) . I'm argumentative, tend to learn more that way.

The w0 and comp I wouldn't consider worth the magnets glued to them... the CVR is the cheapest sub that I would ever see being useful... anything below 10mm xmax isn't very useful for a daily driver unless you have one hell of a box. More xmax/power handling can make up for a less than perfect box :)

But if you clip your "2000 watt" RMS sub with your "puny" 1200d you shouldnt have to worry.

When the amplifiers clips its sending straight DC signal. Also it can double its rated power output in given circumstance.

So that 1200 WRMS amp may put out up to 2400 W to that 2000W sub, theres your blown sub

Ryan from Ohio wrote:When the amplifiers clips its sending straight DC signal. Also it can double its rated power output in given circumstance.

So that 1200 WRMS amp may put out up to 2400 W to that 2000W sub, theres your blown sub

I really doubt that... not on a stock electrical system. That 2400 watts would have to come from somewhere, and thats just not happenin.

I tested the amp to be putting out 680 actual watts on a burp, I'd assume a little more on low bass music, but still... I doubt it saw even 1200 watts.

You are more than welcome to test it out if you want...

I just got my ARC KAR900.1 so send me an H2 I will give it a proper burial if its as bad as you say

ok, in order here..
SPL events being pointless (to ME mind you) because I'm a purist. I want an audio system for the music, and detail. The realism of it. That's why I compete pro circuit for SQ and not SPL. If I wanted to go deaf, I'd just run a jackhammer in the car and get the same effect. "Who's car is louder" to me is half a step away from the annoying punks who like to crank their systems at stoplights to piss off everybody around them. It's done to try to impress others. Not for personal enjoyment. I can easily enjoy my system at 90dB. I don't need to sit in a car hitting over 140dB, and frankly, I don't want to. It's painful to do so. For me, it boils down to having a system that sounds as good as I can make it sound. Not as loud as I can make it. Granted for good SQ you need plenty of reserve power, so as a result you get the added benefit of the ability to get very loud too, but it's not the main goal for me. It's just a bonus.

Well, if he turns it up too much, I can't control that.

this is where system design and tuning come into play. Personally, I like to use a pre-amp in my systems to avoid exactly what you described. By setting the pre-amp as your main volume control, you can attenuate the peak output with the source unit's volume and pre-amp level control so turning the stereo up all the way on the pre-amp master volume results in driving the system to the verge of clipping without going over the line. That's how I keep from destroying speakers myself. Not everyone wants to bother with setting up a system that way, but it is effective. Especially if you're after maximum SQ, and you're going to use noisegates or parametric or 1/3 octave EQing to shape the response for an RTA.

if you clip your "2000 watt" RMS sub with your "puny" 1200d you shouldnt have to worry.

well, keep in mind that a speaker with a 4 ohm nominal impedance can drop to a quarter of an Ohm instantly when it hit's Fs. That, coupled with a quality amplifier having a power supply that can produce a minimum of three times the rated output of the amplifier, means that for an instant of peak demand, a "1200 watt RMS" amplifier can put out at least three times it's RMS rated peak power. That's part of why amps have such massive electrolytic capacitors in their power supplies. If the charging system isn't up to that peak demand though, then you're going to see the amplifier clip, and that sends DC voltage to the speaker when the AC output turns into a square wave output as the voltage rails sag. The problem with this, is that DC voltage across a speaker causes non-linearity and loss of motor control, as well as turning the voice coil into a heating element, which in turn can very quickly melt your coils and turn your speaker into a big paper weight even with as little as 25 watts on a "2000 watt speaker."

anything below 10mm xmax isn't very useful for a daily driver unless you have one hell of a box. More xmax/power handling can make up for a less than perfect box

ok, I have two issues with this. Firstly, remember that not everybody wants the same things from an audio system, so a 10mm excursion may be plenty if the person has a small hatchback, and wants something to even out a factory system for low end fill, or they have little kids and don't want to deafen them.. Some people like a flat response.. not +12dB @ 40Hz for everything.. for those folks, entry level subs are plenty, and they can run a Comp12 from a 100 watt amp, which means no need for a big alternator, massive wiring,etc.

Lastly I'd like to address the misconception of "power handling" ratings for speakers (yet again.)
The RMS and Peak power handling ratings on a speaker are thermal ratings. They are a measurement of how much heat (measured in watts) that the speaker coils can handle without melting. The better the cooling design for the motor, and the heavier the coil wire etc, the more power the speaker can handle.
Now this does not mean that a "2000wRMS" speaker needs 2000 watts of power to reach peak output. Most times a subwoofer only needs around 80% of it's RMS rated power, if even that much, to reach full excursion in a proper enclosure.
A good example of this is the Adire Brahma, with 28mm Xmax. The speaker is rated for 1600wRMS. The amount of power needed to reach peak output in a good box is actually between 500-600 watts RMS. Anything more than that will just allow the sub to reach full excursion at a lower total system volume. Once you hit the peak output of the sub, all you'll do by increasing power is run the risk of over-excursion and driver damage.

oh, one more:

I really doubt that... not on a stock electrical system. That 2400 watts would have to come from somewhere, and thats just not happenin.

There is a fatal error in this statement that prevents me from seeing it as a viable point.
Nobody with half a brain would run a 1200d on a stock electrical system in a car anyway unless they wanted to destroy their speakers, clip their amps, and watch their car lights dim for a while before the car stalls and the alternator fries.
1200 watts class D = ~120A of current draw at full output. Since most cars need at least 60-80+% of their alternator's available current to operate the car, there is no way you'd be using a 1200d and pushing it very hard without some major system upgrades for the car.
If you do use a 1200d on a stock electrical system and claim to have no issues doing so, you aren't driving that amp very hard at all, or it's wired @ 16 ohms.

kiki just owned spkrman into oblivion.

and thanks for all the great info, learned something new today!

maybe we can start a "common misconceptions in car audio" thread, no?

nist7 wrote:maybe we can start a "common misconceptions in car audio" thread, no?

Why? It's all in this one lol :tongue009