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Building a Front stage from scratch
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subster87
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ok heres what i meant and it make sense following what you said, if i run the sub independent of the active crossover.. posibly the kicker 3 way. Then i will have 6 channels total 2 tweeter channels off one set of RCAs, 2 mid bass channels of another, and the crossover takes the two full range rcs inputed to create the third midbass rca, which i can run two of with another 2 channel amplifier. So its highs and mids off a four channel, midbass off a 2 channel. And the sub independent of the crossover from the cd player sub rca port. Crossed over on the mono block amp for the sub. I hope that clears it up if not ill draw a picture. I can picture it out riht now just cant explain it well. And Jonathan finish the tutorial please..... And with no eq on the deck its an alpine 9856 and none on the crossover am i missing out on alot of possible sound quality not having the ability to tweeks frequencies?
mmmm inverted 18!!!!:bow 
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solacedagony
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Alright, just so you know, the KX3 doesn't have the bandpass ability and has a sub channel which only goes up to 250hz for LPF. I would recommend you look at another one or you'll have to use the crossovers on your amps on top of the Kicker crossover.
The amps you're using will be fine, it's just your crossover will be trouble. You'd have to use two sets of fullrange from the HU (one to the crossover, one to your 2 channel amp which has to have the ability to bandpass). You'd also need the ability to lowpass your midrange since the kicker crossover only has high pass on the rear high frequency channels.
EQ isn't necessary per se, but it sure can help a lot in the car.
The reason I recommended the H701 is because it has all this and more.
In other words, it can be done, but it's going to be a bunch of junk to get it running and you'll have to go three different places for setting different crossovers.
The amps you're using will be fine, it's just your crossover will be trouble. You'd have to use two sets of fullrange from the HU (one to the crossover, one to your 2 channel amp which has to have the ability to bandpass). You'd also need the ability to lowpass your midrange since the kicker crossover only has high pass on the rear high frequency channels.
EQ isn't necessary per se, but it sure can help a lot in the car.
The reason I recommended the H701 is because it has all this and more.
In other words, it can be done, but it's going to be a bunch of junk to get it running and you'll have to go three different places for setting different crossovers.
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solacedagony
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subster87
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- Location: Lock Haven, PA
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yeah well i can get at like 5% over cost at the local alpine shop... Yeah now that i think of it i know the one you mean you ahve to add the additional controller. Hmm i wonder how much the rockford 360.2 would be does it ahve all i need? and do you know another other active crossovers that can do the job?
mmmm inverted 18!!!!:bow
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solacedagony
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solacedagony
- Master of My Domain
- Posts: 2171
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:34 am
- Location: Phillipsburg, NJ
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Where I left off in the tutorial:
Using a higher crossover frequency
This applies to 2 ways. Your typical setup will be a 6.5" midbass driver and a compact tweeter.
The benefit of running a higher crossover frequency, especially with car audio equipment such as compact neo domes, is the fact that a midbass driver will retain good performance at higher frequencies (say the 2-5khz region) in regards to distortion and FR. That is of course assuming the midbass driver doesn't have any large resonant peaks, low inductive rolloff, poor frequency response, etc. This area is where a lot of tweeters would struggle. Another benefit is the high crossover frequency allows cleaner performance at higher volumes, at least in that region (though the midbass driver may still suffer in the bass region due to the level of output required). It can also let you use a physically smaller tweeter (say a 3/4" dome), which means you'll typically have better top end extension and detail as well as better off axis performance from said tweeter.
Now, if you remember from the previous tutorials, one point I made is the fact that around 5-6khz or so, IID becomes the dominant form of percieved imaging. What this means is that running a midbass higher will allow you get closer to that point and be able to take advantage of A-pillar mounted tweeters, since pathlengths are of decreasing importance and volume is what mostly determines how your tweeter images at that point. Having the tweeter up top will obviously help solidify your stage height. You'll also notice that the midbass driver is covering nearly all of the "critical range", and there is no crossover point in there or difference in pathlengths. Meaning you'll get uniform sound if your driver is up to snuff.
The downside of using higher crossover frequencies is the fact that you're pretty limited in driver choice. There are only certain drivers that will play that high cleanly, and your options boil down to the damped (paper, poly, etc) variety. Similarly, drivers that will perform well in the upper midrange tend to trade off for less bass extension due to the fact that paper/poly drivers tend to be (intentionally) lightweight , meaning usually a higher Fs and lower Qts, boiling down to a rolloff in the midbass region, perhaps at a higher frequency than you'd prefer. Also, the motors can't have too long a coil in order to avoid an inductive rolloff, especially if you're talking drivers without a plated polepiece or similar. The other big downside is that dispersion from a 6.5" driver is rather poor above 2khz or so, if you're using a 5.25" driver it'll be good up to around 3khz or so. This means you really need to have the midbass drivers be more on-axis to take advantage of their upper midrange performance. Also, since the passenger side tends to be more on-axis than the driver's side, this can mean a side-bias to the right side due to the fact that it's upper midrange will be more audible than the left (driver's) side. This will mess up your imaging as well as the music itself. If you want more directional drivers, it usually means either door pods (which most aren't willing to do) or kick panels. Kick panels open up their own problems, mainly the fact that it doesn't make a good enclosure, and consequently you have to take action to make sure your midbass (which may already be on the thin side) doesn't suffer. Also, lobing is a bigger issue with higher crossover points. Lobing, as described before, is a destructive interference between drivers. Higher crossover slopes tend to help here, but you still have to pay attention to the separation between the drivers. They don't necessarily have to be side by side, it's just that the difference in distance from your head has to be similar (say an A-pillar tweeter is 20" from your head, and a kick panel mounted midbass is 21" from your head, that would image pretty dang good. Note: that scenario would rarely happen). But the downside to having the drivers in such places is that the reflective surfaces are much different, and consequently how the drivers sound will also be different and the system as a whole may not integrate to your preferences both tonally and as far as imaging characteristics. That can basically mean you can tell pretty easily what sounds are coming from which driver. That's not a good thing. Time/phase alignment helps here, too. The last issue is energy storage from the midbass driver. The upper midrange region is where midbasses typically suffer from energy storage, which can create a slightly muddled sound if bad enough. In other words, realism, precision, and clarity isn't going to be the best at that point, certainly not as good as a tweeter in regards to that aspect of performance. But note that the distortion will still be low at that point due to the damped nature of the driver.
Using a higher crossover frequency
This applies to 2 ways. Your typical setup will be a 6.5" midbass driver and a compact tweeter.
The benefit of running a higher crossover frequency, especially with car audio equipment such as compact neo domes, is the fact that a midbass driver will retain good performance at higher frequencies (say the 2-5khz region) in regards to distortion and FR. That is of course assuming the midbass driver doesn't have any large resonant peaks, low inductive rolloff, poor frequency response, etc. This area is where a lot of tweeters would struggle. Another benefit is the high crossover frequency allows cleaner performance at higher volumes, at least in that region (though the midbass driver may still suffer in the bass region due to the level of output required). It can also let you use a physically smaller tweeter (say a 3/4" dome), which means you'll typically have better top end extension and detail as well as better off axis performance from said tweeter.
Now, if you remember from the previous tutorials, one point I made is the fact that around 5-6khz or so, IID becomes the dominant form of percieved imaging. What this means is that running a midbass higher will allow you get closer to that point and be able to take advantage of A-pillar mounted tweeters, since pathlengths are of decreasing importance and volume is what mostly determines how your tweeter images at that point. Having the tweeter up top will obviously help solidify your stage height. You'll also notice that the midbass driver is covering nearly all of the "critical range", and there is no crossover point in there or difference in pathlengths. Meaning you'll get uniform sound if your driver is up to snuff.
The downside of using higher crossover frequencies is the fact that you're pretty limited in driver choice. There are only certain drivers that will play that high cleanly, and your options boil down to the damped (paper, poly, etc) variety. Similarly, drivers that will perform well in the upper midrange tend to trade off for less bass extension due to the fact that paper/poly drivers tend to be (intentionally) lightweight , meaning usually a higher Fs and lower Qts, boiling down to a rolloff in the midbass region, perhaps at a higher frequency than you'd prefer. Also, the motors can't have too long a coil in order to avoid an inductive rolloff, especially if you're talking drivers without a plated polepiece or similar. The other big downside is that dispersion from a 6.5" driver is rather poor above 2khz or so, if you're using a 5.25" driver it'll be good up to around 3khz or so. This means you really need to have the midbass drivers be more on-axis to take advantage of their upper midrange performance. Also, since the passenger side tends to be more on-axis than the driver's side, this can mean a side-bias to the right side due to the fact that it's upper midrange will be more audible than the left (driver's) side. This will mess up your imaging as well as the music itself. If you want more directional drivers, it usually means either door pods (which most aren't willing to do) or kick panels. Kick panels open up their own problems, mainly the fact that it doesn't make a good enclosure, and consequently you have to take action to make sure your midbass (which may already be on the thin side) doesn't suffer. Also, lobing is a bigger issue with higher crossover points. Lobing, as described before, is a destructive interference between drivers. Higher crossover slopes tend to help here, but you still have to pay attention to the separation between the drivers. They don't necessarily have to be side by side, it's just that the difference in distance from your head has to be similar (say an A-pillar tweeter is 20" from your head, and a kick panel mounted midbass is 21" from your head, that would image pretty dang good. Note: that scenario would rarely happen). But the downside to having the drivers in such places is that the reflective surfaces are much different, and consequently how the drivers sound will also be different and the system as a whole may not integrate to your preferences both tonally and as far as imaging characteristics. That can basically mean you can tell pretty easily what sounds are coming from which driver. That's not a good thing. Time/phase alignment helps here, too. The last issue is energy storage from the midbass driver. The upper midrange region is where midbasses typically suffer from energy storage, which can create a slightly muddled sound if bad enough. In other words, realism, precision, and clarity isn't going to be the best at that point, certainly not as good as a tweeter in regards to that aspect of performance. But note that the distortion will still be low at that point due to the damped nature of the driver.