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Displacement Or Proper Box?

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Topic review
   

Expand view Topic review: Displacement Or Proper Box?

by spkrman » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:52 pm

hehe, would be very long to FULLY cover.

Too much work for me :D

by Ryan from Ohio » Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:34 am

Like I said, its not an end all be all statement, but it does hold its weight ;)

Keep in mind them posts are only dealing with that one factor. If you would like to add to the post with the other factors PM me the info you would like added.

by spkrman » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:37 am

Ryan from Ohio wrote:Wait, so the more air you can displace the more "potential" your setup has?

I rest my case....
didn't say that.

I agreed to:

"sound pressure does boild down to moving air. It's just a matter of how much you can move based on efficiency and power on hand, vehicle sympathetic response, et al."

Which doesn't say HOW MUCH air you can move is what matters... its HOW you move it.

If we were outside trying to play 20hz, then yea, more displacement would be the way to go.

by Ryan from Ohio » Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:25 am

Wait, so the more air you can displace the more "potential" your setup has?

I rest my case....

by spkrman » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:34 am

KikiTheCat wrote:sound pressure does boild down to moving air. It's just a matter of how much you can move based on efficiency and power on hand, vehicle sympathetic response, et al.
yep, which isn't necessarily proportionate to the displacement of the driver.

by GlassWolf » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:03 am

I noted mine gets loud just due to being aperiodic and thus -3dB down from sealed for SPL. The driver control is astounding though. If you want clarity and detail, that's teh route to go.

I never gave the CVR a bad rap actually.. we promote them a lot here.. I happen to think it's a great sub for the money, considering what little competition there is in the under $100 range for a decent twelve.

as for using the full potential of the XXX, I'm not pushing the subs to their limits, but that was my intention. I wanted the subs to have plenty of control, and movement with ample reserve power for transient response. Remember this system is set up solely for quality, and not for DBdrags. I'm more concerned with accuracy and realism than I am with drowning out anything but 500ci or engine displacement sitting 2' in front of me and pouring exhaust out through full length headers and 3" pipes.

as a note, when I say 'driver displacement' I'm talking about cone area and excursion together. not just the throw. displacement would refer to the total amount of air the driver is capable of moving, and sound pressure does boild down to moving air. It's just a matter of how much you can move based on efficiency and power on hand, vehicle sympathetic response, et al.

oh, on that earlier one about which is louder, the 8s or 12s.. I get asked that about a dozen times every day, and I get sick of hearing it, but the answer is always the same.. it entirely depends on a lot of factors. your car, how much power each sub gets, teh box type and design, listening preferences, the specific subs, and more. no way to answer that one without knowing all of the data I'd need to formulate an accurate calculation, even for a ballpark in my mind.

by spkrman » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:59 pm

KikiTheCat wrote:if we're going to ask about displacement, let's understand that both compared subs should be in the same box, or both in ideal volume boxes of the same order at least.
Then we come to environment. same car, same box position, etc.
Power should be the same to both drivers if we're going to compare them, or should be altered based on sensitivity to compare Xmax or displacement.
This is where alot of issues happen when doing woofer comparisons... when you are dealing with a set of sealed box woofers, you can simply put them in box that approximate the same Q, and go from there.

But when you have a set of ported woofers... things get hairy. It will vary greatly from woofer to woofer, assuming the specs aren't very similar.
yes with the same power a 12mm and a 24mm Xmax sub may be about the same volume for output, but that 24mm xmax sub is usually going to have higher power requirements, and thus will reach greater excursion, thus displacing more air and thus resulting in a 'louder sub' in the end.
You can make a rule of thumb out of that, but its far from true in real life. Until you get into the very low frequencies... the big displacement woofers just aren't more useful than a more "common" woofer.
of course box order or type matters, as does power, sensitivity, motor control, vehicle cabin Fs, and plenty of other factors.
Yep, this is *all* that matters.
In the end, every variable has an effect on the final outcome, but with proper design, superior specs usually result in a superior sub.
Must not have ever used an H2... .heheheh :D
It's when you get people doing installs who don't know what they're doing that you run into the biggest problems.
This is why CVR's have such a bad rep... and even the mighty w7 falls into alot of crappy shop I just ripped ure pants off installs.
by the way, what was the point of this thread? are we looking for best SPL? best sound quality? what exactly are our goals? they were never clearly defined, and that's another fault in the approach to this query.
Just adressing the notion that more displacement = louder... this wasn't the only thread that lead in that direction. Seemed to be a misconception on the forum.

More displacement doesn't even mean more POTENTIAL in some cases.
Personally I use a pair of RE XXX 12" subs in an aperiodic rear loaded enclosure in a car that's 17' long and 6' wide and made of pure old school detroit iron. The enclosure is entirely designed for SQ, but with ~1280wRMS to each sub from good class AB amps, it can get plenty loud if I want it to.
I do love the sound of the car's exhaust though.. it's such a shame to drown that out.
with 2500 watts... i'd sure hope it could get loud!

THe real Q here is... are you even using all of the sub? Would another sub that is more effeciant not be louder? You are well within the limits of the XXX with that power, and I'm sure that was the idea.

by Scarrell » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:55 pm

wow im glad this is getting somewhere. :banghead

by spkrman » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:45 pm

"Ever been asked what will be louder?

4- 12" Brand Z subwoofers or 10- 8" Brand D subwoofers?

Well thats take that question and reword it properly:

What will have more POTENTIAL?"

Leads you to believe "potential" = louder

When in fact... more xmax doesn't mean it will be louder.

If you were a noob and read that post, thats what you would assume, more potential = louder. You just need to explain that out better.

And even if a sub IS moving farther... it doesnt mean its louder.

by GlassWolf » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:00 am

ok, let's see.
first, don't assume anything. if you want to do a scientific approach to a comparison, use a controlled environment where all factors are equal or at least measured against a control, and vary as few factors as possible when looking at two speakers side by side.

if we're going to ask about displacement, let's understand that both compared subs should be in the same box, or both in ideal volume boxes of the same order at least.
Then we come to environment. same car, same box position, etc.
Power should be the same to both drivers if we're going to compare them, or should be altered based on sensitivity to compare Xmax or displacement.
yes with the same power a 12mm and a 24mm Xmax sub may be about the same volume for output, but that 24mm xmax sub is usually going to have higher power requirements, and thus will reach greater excursion, thus displacing more air and thus resulting in a 'louder sub' in the end.
of course box order or type matters, as does power, sensitivity, motor control, vehicle cabin Fs, and plenty of other factors.
In the end, every variable has an effect on the final outcome, but with proper design, superior specs usually result in a superior sub.
Honestly, the right box and proper power and all of those factors should be assumed ideal if the installer has half a brain. It's when you get people doing installs who don't know what they're doing that you run into the biggest problems.

by the way, what was the point of this thread? are we looking for best SPL? best sound quality? what exactly are our goals? they were never clearly defined, and that's another fault in the approach to this query.
Personally I use a pair of RE XXX 12" subs in an aperiodic rear loaded enclosure in a car that's 17' long and 6' wide and made of pure old school detroit iron. The enclosure is entirely designed for SQ, but with ~1280wRMS to each sub from good class AB amps, it can get plenty loud if I want it to.
I do love the sound of the car's exhaust though.. it's such a shame to drown that out.

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